The Smiley face murder theory (variations include Smiley face murders, Smiley face killings, Smiley face gang, and others) is a theory advanced by retired New York City detectives Kevin Gannon and Anthony Duarte, and Dr. Lee Gilbertson, a criminal justice professor and gang expert at St. Cloud State University. They allege that a number of young men found dead in bodies of water across several. The Hook, or The Hookman, is an urban legend about a killer with a pirate-like hook for a hand attacking a couple in a parked car. The story is thought to date from at least the mid-1950s, and gained significant attention when it was reprinted in the advice column Dear Abby in 1960. It has since become a morality archetype in popular culture, and has been referenced in various horror films.
- The 4chan Serial Killers
- The 4chan Serial Killer Pictures
- 08 The 4chan Serial Killer
- Graphic The 4chan Serial Killer
- The 4 Chain Serial Killer
(Redirected from Hookhand)
The Hook, or The Hookman,[1] is an urban legend about a killer with a pirate-like hook for a hand attacking a couple in a parked car. The story is thought to date from at least the mid-1950s, and gained significant attention when it was reprinted in the advice column Dear Abby in 1960.[2] It has since become a morality archetype in popular culture, and has been referenced in various horror films.
Legend[edit]
The basic premise involves a young couple cuddling in a car with the radio playing. Suddenly, a news bulletin reports that a serial killer has just escaped from a nearby institution.[3] The killer has a hook. For varying reasons, they decide to leave quickly. In the end, the killer's hook is either found hanging from the door handle or embedded into the door itself. Different variations include a scraping sound on the car door. Some versions start the same way, but have the couple spotting the killer, warning others, and then narrowly escaping with the killer holding onto the car's roof. In another version, the woman sees a shadowy figure watching the couple from nearby. The man leaves to confront the figure, who then suddenly disappears. Thinking that his date just imagined it, the man returns to the car only to see that the woman has been brutally murdered with a hook.
In an alternate version, the couple drive through an unknown part of the country late at night and stop in the middle of the woods, because either the man has to urinate, or the car breaks down and the man leaves for help. While waiting for him to return, the woman turns on the radio and hears the report of an escaped mental patient. She is then disturbed many times by a thumping on the roof of the car. She eventually exits and sees the escaped patient sitting on the roof, banging the man's severed head on it. Another variation has the woman seeing the man's butchered body suspended upside down from a tree with his fingernails scraping against the roof. In another version of this variation, he's hanging right side up and either his blood is dripping on the roof or his feet are scraping against the roof. In other versions, the man does return to the car only to see his date brutally murdered with a hook embedded in her. Other tales have the woman leaving the car when her date doesn't come back, only to see his mutilated body (either on the car's roof, nailed on a tree, or just a few short stops away). As she starts to panic, she runs into the maniac and is also killed. In another variation of the story, the woman is discovered by police. While being escorted to safety, she is warned not to look behind her. When she does so, she sees the grisly aftermath of the man's murder.
A similar legend recounts that a young couple are heading back from a great date when their car breaks down (either from running out of fuel or a malfunction). The man then decides to head off on foot to find someone to help with the problem while the woman stays behind in the car. She then falls asleep while waiting and wakes up to see a hideous person looking at her through the window. Luckily, the car is locked, so the person can't get inside. But to the woman's horror, the person raises both of his arms to reveal that they are holding her date's severed head in one hand and the car keys in the other. The fate of the woman is never revealed.[2]
Origin[edit]
The origins of the Hook legend are not entirely known, though, according to folklorist and historian Jan Harold Brunvand, the story began to circulate some time in the 1950s in the United States.[1] According to Brunvand in The Vanishing Hitchhiker: American Urban Legends and Their Meanings, the story had become widespread amongst American teenagers by 1959, and continued to expand into the 1960s.[4]Snopes writer David Mikkelson has speculated that the legend might have roots in real-life lovers' lane murders, such as the 1946 Texarkana Moonlight Murders.[2]
The first known publication of the story occurred on November 8, 1960, when a reader letter telling the story was reprinted in Dear Abby, a popular advice column:
Dear Abby: If you are interested in teenagers, you will print this story. I don't know whether it's true or not, but it doesn't matter because it served its purpose for me: A fellow and his date pulled into their favorite 'lovers lane' to listen to the radio and do a little necking. The music was interrupted by an announcer who said there was an escaped convict in the area who had served time for rape and robbery. He was described as having a hook instead of a right hand. The couple become frightened and drove away. When the boy took his girl home, he went around to open the car door for her. Then he saw—a hook on the door handle! I will never park to make out as long as I live. I hope this does the same for other kids. —Jeanette[2][5]
Literary scholar Christopher Pittard traces the plot dynamics of the legend to Victorian literature, particularly the 1913 horror novel The Lodger by Marie Adelaide Belloc Lowndes.[6] Though the two narratives have little in common, he notes that both are built upon a 'threefold relationship of crime, dirt, and chance.. Such a reading also implies a reconsideration of the historical trajectory of the urban legend, usually read as a product of postmodernist consumer culture.'[7]
Interpretations[edit]
Folklorists have interpreted the long history of this legend in many ways. Alan Dundes's Freudian interpretation explains the hook as a phallic symbol and its amputation as a symbolic castration.[8]
Swedish folklorist Bengt af Klintberg describes the story as an example of 'a conflict between representatives of normal people who follow the rules of society and those who are not normal, who deviate and threaten the normal group.'[9]
American folklorist Bill Ellis interpreted the maniac in The Hook as a moral custodian who interrupts the sexual experimentation of the young couple. He sees the Hookman's disability as 'his own lack of sexuality' and 'the threat of the Hookman is not the normal sex drive of teenagers, but the abnormal drive of some adults to keep them apart.'[10]
In popular culture[edit]
A version of the story by author Alvin Schwartz appears in the 1981 collection of shorthorror stories for childrenScary Stories to Tell in the Dark.[11]
In film, the Hook legend has occasionally appeared: in a 1947 film Dick Tracy's Dilemma. fictional Detective Dick Tracy pursues a murderous killer with a hook for a hand; the killer with a hook theme has also appeared in comedies; In Meatballs (1979), Bill Murray's character retells the Hook legend to campers around a campfire.[12] In Shrek the Halls (2007), Gingy tells an alternate version of this legend to his girlfriend Suzy in his flashback. The story has, however, most often been depicted and referenced in horror films.[13] Its prevalence, according to film scholar Mark Kermode, is most reflected in the slasher film, functioning as a morality archetype on youth sexuality.[14]He Knows You're Alone (1980) opens with a film within a film scene in which a young couple are attacked by a killer while in a parked car.[15] The slasher film Final Exam opens with a scene in which a couple are attacked in a parked car, and later, a student is murdered in a university locker room with a hook.[16]Campfire Tales (1997), an anthology horror film, opens with a segment retelling the Hook legend, set in the 1950s.[17]I Know What You Did Last Summer (1997) features a killer stalking teenagers with a hook; at the beginning of the film, the central characters recount the Hook legend around a campfire. The Candyman films of the 90's, and the Jordan Peele update of the series that is scheduled to release in June of 2020, is centered around this legend as well.[18]Lovers Lane (1999), is a slasher film featuring a killer who murders teenagers at a lovers' lane with a hook.[19]
The story has also appeared in various television programs; 'The Pest House' (1998), the fourteenth episode of season 2 of the TV series Millennium, opens with a murder similar to that of the urban legend. Season one, episode seven of the TV show Supernatural features a hookman as the villain. It is the first story in the first episode of Mostly True Stories?: Urban Legends Revealed. The Canadian animated anthology series Freaky Stories (1997) has a segment in its first season based on the Hook, set in the 1950s.[20]
An attempted telling of the story by a 4chan user in broken English is itself a minor meme, specifically the ending when the woman in the car discovers the Hookman's hook stuck in the car, which is rendered simply 'man door hand hook car door.' This version has found its way into a re-working of the song 'Mr Sandman' by The Chordettes.[21]
See also[edit]
References[edit]
- ^ abBrunvand 2003, p. 49.
- ^ abcdMikkelson, David (2 December 1998). 'The Hook:An escaped killer interrupts a young couple's make-out session'. snopes.com. Retrieved 11 July 2019.
- ^Brunvand 2004, p. 15.
- ^Brunvand 2003, pp. 49–50.
- ^Brunvand 2003, pp. 48–49.
- ^Pittard 2011, pp. 188–189.
- ^Pittard 2011, p. 188.
- ^Brunvand 2003, pp. 50–51.
- ^Brunvand 2001, pp. 200–201.
- ^Ellis 1987, pp. 31–60.
- ^Dietsch, T.J. (30 October 2015). '11 of the scariest stories to tell in the dark'. geek.com. Retrieved 11 July 2019.
Another widespread urban legend from the 80s and 90s, “High Beams” follows the misadventures of a young woman who seems to be in danger from the man driving the truck behind her car.
- ^Koven 2007, p. 101.
- ^Koven 2007, pp. 112–114.
- ^Koven 2007, p. 113.
- ^Everman 2003, p. 122. sfn error: no target: CITEREFEverman2003 (help)
- ^Armstrong 2003, p. 113.
- ^Koven 2007, p. 192.
- ^Koven 2007, p. 104.
- ^Harper 2004, p. 123.
- ^de Vos, Gail (2012). What Happens Next? Contemporary Urban Legends and Popular Culture. ABC-CLIO. p. 11.
- ^https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGqdjaz2Upg
Bibliography[edit]
- Armstrong, Kent Bryon (2003). Slasher Films: An International Filmography, 1960 Through 2001. McFarland. ISBN978-0-786-41462-8.CS1 maint: ref=harv (link)
- Brunvand, Jan Harold (December 17, 2003). The Vanishing Hitchhiker: American Urban Legends & Their Meanings. New York: W.W. Norton & Company.CS1 maint: ref=harv (link)
- Brunvand, Jan Harold (2001). Encyclopedia of Urban Legends. New York: W.W. Norton & Company. ISBN978-1-59884-720-8.CS1 maint: ref=harv (link)
- Brunvand, Jan Harold (2004). Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid: The Book of Scary Urban Legends. New York: W.W. Norton & Company. ISBN978-0-393-32613-0.CS1 maint: ref=harv (link)
- Ellis, Bill (1987). 'Why Are Verbatim Transcripts of Legends Necessary?'. In G. Bennett, P. Smith and J. Widdowson (ed.). Perspectives on Contemporary Legend II. Sheffield Acad. Press. ISBN978-1-850-75118-2.CS1 maint: ref=harv (link)
- Everman, Welch D. (200). Cult Horror Films: From Attack of the 50 Foot Woman to Zombies of Mora Tau. Citadel. ISBN978-0-806-51425-3.CS1 maint: ref=harv (link)
- Harper, Jim (2004). Legacy of Blood: A Comprehensive Guide to Slasher Movies. Critical Vision. ISBN978-1-900-48639-2.CS1 maint: ref=harv (link)
- Koven, Mikel (2007). Film, Folklore, and Urban Legends. Scarecrow Press. ISBN978-0-810-86025-4.CS1 maint: ref=harv (link)
- Pittard, Christopher (2011). Purity and Contamination in Late Victorian Detective Fiction. Routledge. ISBN978-0-754-66813-8.CS1 maint: ref=harv (link)
Further reading[edit]
- Brunvand, Jan Harold (1994). The Baby Train and Other Lusty Urban Legends. W.W. Norton & Company. ISBN978-0-393-31208-9.
- De Caro, Frank (2008). An Anthology of American Folktales and Legends. Routledge. ISBN978-0-765-62129-0.
External links[edit]
- The Hook at Snopes.com
- The Hook at the Harold B. Lee Library folklore archive
Retrieved from 'https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Hook&oldid=974740152'
< Talk:John Allen Muhammad
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Appeals
A line at the end of the second paragraph needs to be updated. 'Some appeals had been made and rejected, but others remained pending.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.192.59.117 (talk) 03:16, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
That line is extremely misleading. He had exhausted all of his appeals for the murder of Dean H. Meyers (for which he was being executed). Any remaining appeals were unrelated to his execution. Clemency from the Virginia Governor was the only remaining legal route to stay the execution. 71.59.2.102 (talk) 14:51, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Irony vs. coincidence
Entry currently says that people reacted to the 'irony' of 9:11 as the time of death, in light of the terrorist attacks of 9/11/01. The far more proper word is 'concidence.' An irony is an event that was not expected to occur in light of something else; For example, if Muhammad were a follower of Gandhi and did not even know how to use a gun, his conviction and execution would have been ironic. The mere concidence between 9:11 and 9/11 is NOT something unexpected; in fact, it was a very real possibility since the execution started at 9:00. Sorry for this slight rant, but please change 'irony' to 'coincidence.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.225.200.150 (talk) 02:58, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
- You have a point, the problem is what does the source say? I don't necessarily agree with your definition of Irony (nor wikipedia's for that matter), but you are correct, 'irony' should not be conflated with 'coinicidence'. If the source says the term 'irony' was used by stony faced officials in the presser after this wretched chap's death, then 'irony' has to be used in the article. Crafty (talk) 03:02, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
- Understood, but the source is not being quoted here. You either need to put irony in quotes or else you need to exercise editorial judgment and use the proper word. If a source said that Bill Clinton was impeached for angering God, would Wikipedia print that Bill Clinton was impeached for angering God? An encyclopedia should use proper words for things; it should not be a Wolf Blitzer-like sounding board that simply propagates bad use of logic and language.
- Let me take a look at the source and see what I can do. Crafty (talk) 03:28, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
- It appears that User:Bdb484 has removed the press conference as a primary source noting it to be 'totally lame'. Crafty (talk) 03:30, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Execution
Someone added text that Muhammad had chosen the electric chair as his method of execution. CNN, AP and several other news sources all say he declined to choose a method and will get lethal injection by default. I corrected the statement and added a ref to CNN. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stmdc (talk • contribs) 01:29, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
He was executed by lethal injection. In Virginia inmates may select either the electric chair or lethal injection. A failure to select either option defaults to the lethal injection option, and this is what happened in this case. His selection was not made at all, and therefore the law stated that lethal injection was selected for him. The Virginian Pilot, the Hampton Roads largest daily paper, stated in a concurrent story to the execution that since the change in the law in 1998, only 5 inmates have selected the electric chair, and some of them, as in the case of Earl Bramblett in 2003, selected the electric chair as a protest to point out the barbarity of executions in general. The vast majority of inmates since the selection law took effect in 1998 has been to lethal injection. Themoodyblue (talk) 02:56, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Gulf War
The 4chan Serial Killers
I once read/heard Muhammad was the individual who fragged some guys in Gulf War I (Operation Desert Storm.) Can someone verify if this is the case?
- I have been following this story since 2002 on an informal basis, and I have never heard or read that, even in some of the extremist articles. It seems a lot of his evil thinking and actions developed as he failed in civilian life after his time in the service. IMHO, with what we are now hearing in court from Malvo, assuming it is true, it is probably a good thing Muhammad failed as so many things, or harm to others would have been even worse than what he did accomplish stateside. Vaoverland 22:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
- It appears that the Seattle Times published an article by Alex Tizon which quotes a witness to an incident in the 1991 Gulf War (see: http://alextizon.com/articles/killers/John%20Muhammad%27s%20Meltdown.pdf on page 11):
- The story, according to Berentson and at least two other former members of the 84th, was that Muhammad threw a thermite grenade into a tent housing 16 of his fellow soldiers. Thermite grenades — made of finely granulated aluminum mixed with a metal oxide, and blasting heat up to 1,200 degrees — are used to destroy equipment during battle. The attack could easily have killed or maimed, but all 16 in the tent, some coughing and choking, escaped unharmed. Berentson was in the tent. He says the grenade went off near him and near a staff sergeant with whom Muhammad had fought earlier that day. The Army's Criminal Investigation Division, Berentson says, concluded Muhammad (then named Williams) was the lead suspect. Muhammad was led away in handcuffs and eventually transferred to another company pending chargesSlowjoe17 (talk) 17:37, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
The 4chan Serial Killer Pictures
One of the reasons that people would still be wondering why the snipers did what they did is political correctness, in this case, the mainstream media's 'revisionism and sanitization of Islam', i.e., the 'politically correct whitewashing of the truth aimed at pleasing Muslim groups like CAIR': 'When news of the snipers' identity first broke, CNN anchors were so determined to avoid making the obvious connection to radical Islam that they called the lead sniper, a Muslim convert, by his old name. Police were looking for John Allen Muhammad, but CNN insisted on referring to him as John Allen Williams.' To further quote Rehabbing The D.C. Snipers by Investor's Business Daily (which presents a 'pile of courtroom evidence'): 'Nowhere in [CNN's] one-hour special — promoted as 'The Minds of the D.C. Snipers' — is Islamist brainwashing even hinted as a motivating factor behind their serial assassinations. Yet the evidence is overwhelming that they were on a jihad.' Asteriks 17:52, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
'On a Jihad'? You have to be kidding. The guy is a member of the Nation of Islam (which is considered a deviant sect and not Muslim by almost all Muslims, especially hardcore Salafi Jihadists), and left Tarot cards and a note that said 'I Am God', and then demanded 10 million dollars. Sounds like classic Al-Qaeda to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.246.220.73 (talk) 02:36, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Or perhaps classic whack job (which Muhammad clearly was) using the recent Al Queda attacks as a ruse to throw suspicion off of him. Either way, it was very definitely a terrorist act. I lived in Hampton Roads at the time and I remember how terrified everyone was to be out at all. Why ever he did it, it was terrorism and cold-blooded, vicious, nihilistic murder. I am not much of a supporter of the death penalty, but if there was ever a case for it this was the one. If they had not executed this man, then they should have commuted everyone else's sentence on death row and then been done with it. Themoodyblue (talk) 03:01, 11 November 2009 (UTC)--
The following is an example article containing the allegation that Muhammad was suspected of fragging in GWI:http://townhall.com/columnists/MichelleMalkin/2003/03/26/mswa_muslim_soldiers_with_attitude?page=2
also:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bal-md.malvo05dec05,0,4954387.story—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.40.144.103 (talk) 03:55, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Meanwhile, references #1 and #6 are identical.
Georgia
The article says they were responsible for crimes in Georgia, but doesn't explain any details. Xender for mac download. Thus, I've removed the mentions. Superm401 - Talk 08:34, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Number of victims?
The article says 10 killed, the infobox says 16. RomaC (talk) 08:54, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
- I believe that the number 10 refers specifically only to the Beltway sniper victims' deaths .. and that the number 16 refers to the total number of deaths by Muhammad (that is, the Beltway sniper victims plus all of his other victims). Thanks. (64.252.124.238 (talk) 16:03, 10 November 2009 (UTC))
- I see. I wasn't aware he had killed others before the Beltway shootings, maybe a new section 'Other victims' would be appropriate? RomaC (talk) 02:20, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
- 15 people were killed by the two of them, 10 of them were part of the DC sniper shooting. However I don't know how many of the were actually killed by John Allen Muhammad. NWH5305 04:38, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
- I see. I wasn't aware he had killed others before the Beltway shootings, maybe a new section 'Other victims' would be appropriate? RomaC (talk) 02:20, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Semi-protection
Given the high rate of IP vandalism this article is attracting today, I've petitioned the WikiGods for semi-protection. May they smile upon my humble request. [UPDATE: This guy is dead.] Crafty (talk) 21:02, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
- What's your citable source? ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 02:12, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
The press is making it known.-J0hn76.102.32.59 (talk) 02:26, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
- 'What's your citable source?' Please tell me you are kidding. You might turn on the television, radio, internet or the two cans with a string held between them in your backyard. This is all over the media, there have been official press conference from the Virginia Department of Corrections and enough coverage on this to choke a horse. What on earth do you consider sufficiently citeable? Seeing the guys body in person? Themoodyblue (talk) 03:40, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
- By now it's old news, but seeing it on TV doesn't really count, for wikipedia purposes anyway. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 05:14, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Stop reverting please..
I noticed some people edit the page into what it will be in 10 minutes but someone is reverting it..just let it be. The Fear (talk) 02:13, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
- I know. Too bad they don't realize they need a reliable source confirming his death. - 02:14, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
- I removed the reference to whoever called ACDCGAMER what they called him - that language is completely unacceptable and unnecessary. The problem probably was that a number of people were trying to update and it became a bit of a traffic jam. Insulting people that were trying to improve the article (and I notice that the loser who made the insult did not sign it) is a real jerk move and it needs to stop throughout Wikipedia. Discuss and debate, fine. Insults and ad hominem attacks are the last bastion of the weak minded. Themoodyblue (talk) 03:34, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
- Oh shut up. I wasn't the one getting high and mighty about people adding John Muhammad's time of death, after he had been confirmed dead by multiple sources. Why don't we force people to use citations when stating 'the sky is blue', or 'the grass is green', while we're at it.
- Well, there is an essay that explains why we don't need to cite that the sky is blue, although some would say you need to do exactly that. Bzweebl (talk) 23:33, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
- Oh shut up. I wasn't the one getting high and mighty about people adding John Muhammad's time of death, after he had been confirmed dead by multiple sources. Why don't we force people to use citations when stating 'the sky is blue', or 'the grass is green', while we're at it.
Time of death
9:11 pm local, per news conference —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.13.223.188 (talk) 02:15, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
- Confirmed now per Fox News. JungleCatShiny!/Oohhh! 02:17, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Look, guys
For those of you who personally trolled/attacked me on my talk page, I'm sorry for that edit; I did not know that Fox News had updated their page confirming his death by the time I made that edit, because it was not updated when I checked their website a few minutes ago. Still, for pretty much 'anything' on Wikipedia, including his death, you HAVE to have some sort of reliable source that confirms that information. Even if John's death was planned already, there still needs to be a legitimate source that confirms that he actually was executed. - 03:34, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Hey Gamer, please note my entry above under 'reverting'. Sorry some jackass decided that insulting you was the only way he can make his point. Notice that he (or she) did not sign the insult and showed themselves to be what they were calling you. Parker brothers serial numbers. To quote (well, paraphrase really) John Wayne, 'Don't let the idiots on wikipedia get you down!' Themoodyblue (talk) 03:37, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
- *huggles*, homo.
- Also, I'm not the one who edited his talk page. I know it's hard to believe that multiple people get angry when some high and mighty creep goes around reverting their edits for no good reason, but bear with me here.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.80.116.234 (talk) 02:06, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
- Meh, they're probably trolls from 4chan or something. I've dealt with MAAAAANY people like them before. On different sites. - 04:54, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Victims
In the Beltway sniper attack victims section there is a table of victims. More victims are listed below that. Does anyone have more info about those below the table? Did he confess to shooting them? Did he shoot them on his own, with Malvo or with someone else? Where in the US were they shot? When did those shootings occur? Did each die or survive? Lkjhgfdsa 0 (talk) 10:32, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
I belive that the last survivor on the table was marked as being in the wrong location. I was eating in the Ponderosa where he was shot while walking out of, and this was in Richmond, Virginia, not Ashland. Just tryin to help! 98.140.188.30 (talk) 20:42, 3 December 2009 (UTC)Actualy, disregard that last comment, I looked into it more and it was in Ashland, I just didn't remember it being that far away, possibly because I fell asleep on the ride home (considering that they wouldn't let us leave the resturant for hours, and I was much younger at the time).98.140.188.59 (talk) 20:03, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
What about the murder in Montgomery, AL? That is never mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.197.14.47 (talk) 23:00, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
'Spree killer' or 'serial killer'
'Serial Killer' appears to be a more appropriate label. Even the link to 'Spree Killer' offers a definition that is inaccurate for this entry: 'The U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics defines a spree killing as 'killings at two or more locations with almost no time break between murders.'[1] According to the FBI the general definition of spree murder is two or more murders committed by an offender or offenders, without a cooling-off period; the lack of a cooling-off period marking the difference between a spree murder and a serial murder.' In contrast, the Beltway Sniper Attacks lasted approximately three weeks, and only ended with arrests. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.69.35 (talk) 09:07, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
- I totally agree. That jumped out at me immediately when I was reading the article. Tithonfury (talk) 06:31, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
- The problem with that is that serial killers are nearly always associated with sociopathic personalities, i.e. killing as part of a weird ritual of some kind. These guys seemed to be doing it for political reasons. It appears to have been de facto terrorist attacks, and they certainly succeeded in creating terror in the public, but I don't think the media called them terrorists as such. In an odd way, their plan reminds me a little bit of John Brown, who was also delusional and also ended up getting put down, by a rope instead of a needle. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 06:53, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
- Perhaps something along the lines of 'politically-motivated serial killer' would be appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.192.59.117 (talk) 03:12, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
- The media did not necessarily refer to them as 'terrorists' .. but I believe that 'terrorism' was one of their official legal charges. Thanks. (64.252.124.238 (talk) 16:07, 10 November 2009 (UTC))
- The Beltway Sniper Attacks lasted approximately three weeks, but there was no significant cooling-off period in between the murders. He also didn't have a type, which serial killers usually do. Among [most] experts on the topic of serial killers, he certainly wouldn't be defined as one. Spree killer fits him best, which is why I altered the lead to this. Flyer22 (talk) 21:00, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
- The media did not necessarily refer to them as 'terrorists' .. but I believe that 'terrorism' was one of their official legal charges. Thanks. (64.252.124.238 (talk) 16:07, 10 November 2009 (UTC))
@Flyer22. Those observations are vague and arbitrary. Please provide sources which suggest 'no significant cooling-off period' and quotes of 'experts' who would 'certainly' not define him as a serial killer. As to having a 'type' of victim, neither did David Berkowitz (Son of Sam), who, per Wikipedia, is classified as a 'serial killer.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.172.133 (talk) 02:02, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
- There is nothing vague and arbitrary about it. There are perfectly reliable sources in the Serial killer article and the lead (intro) of the Spree killer article to show you what a serial killer is. If we went by your and some others' definition of a serial killer, then there would be no such thing as spree killers; they would all be classified as serial killers by experts. But just to indulge you on whether there was a significant cooling-off period for these two individuals, all one needs to do is look at the dates of their attacks. No source is needed to establish that there was no significant/true cooling-off period between the murders. And as for 'type,' I said 'usually' (serial killers usually have a type). Flyer22 (talk) 23:00, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
- Due to the Maintaining a difference between serial killers and serial murderers discussion on the Serial killer talk page some months ago, I changed the lead to this. As Legitimus states: The Beltway Sniper's typology is debated even by experts in the very books we're reading. The Crime Classification Manual contains them as a case study, and implies they are both spree and serial. They are mentioned directly under Spree Killer, yet the case study contains this statement: 'The thirteen victims, ten dead and three wounded, qualify this crime as serial, given the cooling-off period between each of the shootings. It could also be argued that the crime was a group cause given that Malvo has been directly implicated in at least two of the shootings and the actions were committed by two individuals who arguably had similar ideologies.'
08 The 4chan Serial Killer
- I still say that there was no true cooling-off period, per my reasoning in the linked discussion, and that most experts would not classify these two as serial killers, but anyway.. The current lead still labels Muhammad as a spree killer first, seeing as he is even placed under that category in the Crime Classification Manual, but also notes the seemingly apparent debate among experts about what to call him (a spree killer or a serial killer). If needed, another source could likely be found showing that some experts may disagree on which category to place him in..or that they may place him in both. It would also be a good idea to have a section on this in the article, since it is so debated by the public..or rather so many people have never heard of a spree killer. Flyer22 (talk) 20:11, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
- @Flyer22, Please, don't put words in my mouth: I'm not proposing 'my' defintion of a serial killer but referring to the FBI's definition (if you would take the opportunity to fully read what I wrote). In addition, I'm not asking for 'indulgence' but that you do what any half-rate scholar would do: Cite a credible source as I did. I see loads of self-referencial pronouns ('I still say..', 'I believe..') but few outside sources in your argument. As to the 'cooling off period' this is a very subjective term as no quantitative interval is supplied in the FBI's definition. Is it one hour? One day? Subsequently, the FBI, through a symposium composed of academia and law enforcement officials, has worked to revise this definition: 'Central to the discussion was the definitional problems relating to the concept of a cooling-off period. Because it creates arbitrary guidelines, the confusion surrounding this concept led the majority of attendees to advocate disregarding the use of spree murder as a separate category. The designation does not provide any real benefit for use by law enforcement' (http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder). As to 'type,' I supplied an example of a murderer, typicially classified as a serial killer (Berkowitz), who did not have specific 'type.' So there's the black swan to your premise. As to the _Crime Classification Manual_, there's a start, a credible source, good find--perhaps he could be identified as both (as Berkowitz). So, why assume the burden of proof applies to his status as 'serial killer' and assume that he is a priori a 'spree killer'? (Conversely, we could identify him as a 'serial killer' in the first sentence and afterwards mention that some (e.g., Flyer22) might identify him as a 'spree killer' but I assume you would find this presentation objectionable). Nonetheless, the FBI symposium, offered the following: 'The different discussion groups at the Symposium agreed on a number of similar factors to be included in a definition. These included:
- I still say that there was no true cooling-off period, per my reasoning in the linked discussion, and that most experts would not classify these two as serial killers, but anyway.. The current lead still labels Muhammad as a spree killer first, seeing as he is even placed under that category in the Crime Classification Manual, but also notes the seemingly apparent debate among experts about what to call him (a spree killer or a serial killer). If needed, another source could likely be found showing that some experts may disagree on which category to place him in..or that they may place him in both. It would also be a good idea to have a section on this in the article, since it is so debated by the public..or rather so many people have never heard of a spree killer. Flyer22 (talk) 20:11, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
- • one or more offenders
- • two or more murdered victims
- • incidents should be occurring in separate events, at different times
- • the time period between murders separates serial murder from mass murder
- In combining the various ideas put forth at the Symposium, the following definition was crafted:
- Serial Murder: The unlawful killing of two or more victims by the same offender(s), in separate events' (http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.247.91.117 (talk) 00:37, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
- IP, I do not feel that I put words into your mouth. And I use 'self-referencial pronouns' such as 'I still say' and 'I believe' to counter what you still say and believe. You say 'do what any half-rate scholar would do: Cite a credible source as I did.' I did cite a credible source, as even you have admitted. My source specifically mentions John Allen Muhammad as a spree killer. Your FBI source does not. We go by WP:Reliable sources here. Not interpretations (aka WP:Original research) of what the FBI means when they define serial killer. Not to mention, the FBI is not the only authoritative source to go by with regard to defining a serial killer. As for the concept of the cooling-off period, I have never seen a reliable source define it as one hour or one day; the period is usually defined as 'significant.' And while what is 'significant' can also be debated, it goes without saying that one hour or one day is not a significant cooling-off period for serial killers (at least it goes without saying for those who have thoroughly studied this subject). That's why the term spree killer even exists. Attendees advocating to disregard the use of 'spree murder' as a separate category doesn't mean that it's been discarded. If 'serial killer' was only defined as the 'unlawful killing of two or more victims by the same offender(s), in separate events,' then the term would apply to everyone who has unlawfully killed two or more people, except for mass murderers. But that isn't the case. As I mentioned in the Maintaining a difference between serial killers and serial murderers discussion, multiple murders are often committed by gang members and mob bosses, but these people are hardly ever defined as serial killers. There's more that goes into the definition, even if arbitrary to you and some members of the FBI. And once again, as for 'type,' I said 'usually' (serial killers usually have a type). The type factor is supported by various scholarly sources (both old and modern), so I'm not sure why you are debating that aspect of my comments again..mentioning Berkowitz yet again (this time as a 'black swan to [my] premise'). Furthermore, as shown above, I'd already compromised on this topic by having the lead label Muhammad as a spree killer first, seeing as he is even placed under that category in the Crime Classification Manual, but also having it note the debate among experts about what to call him (a spree killer or a serial killer). So why you felt the need to show back up after all this time (only 'after all this time' if you weren't also this IP who kept getting reverted[1][2][3]) and revert back to 'serial killer' while rewording the hidden note and removing the reference is perplexing to me..other than you wanting Muhammad to be defined as a serial killer first and foremost. I've had the lead label him as a spree killer first because, like I stated, he fits that definition more accurately than he fits 'serial killer.' But I am obviously willing to compromise. Are you? We could refrain from definitively defining him as a spree or serial killer in the first line, and simply let the 'Although' line and/or a section on it take care of this. The 'Although' line could be tweaked to include 'spree killer,' going like this: 'Although the pairing's actions were classified as psychopathy attributable to serial killer characteristics by the media, whether or not their psychopathy meets this classification or that of a spree killer is debated by researchers.' Flyer22 (talk) 01:42, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
- Serial Murder: The unlawful killing of two or more victims by the same offender(s), in separate events' (http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.247.91.117 (talk) 00:37, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Misleadingly 'Islamic' feel to article due to questionable source material
Regarding this sentence near the beginning of the article:'Drawings by Malvo describe the murders as part of a 'jihad' (Arabic for 'struggle in the way of God').'
I think this is very misleading,(1.) because the the style and some of the words expressed in the source material are scarily Islamophobic, and further sources are not given in that linked article to make it seem authentic(2.) The article implies the drawings were made by John Muhammad's partner after the incident and while in prison. By not including these facts in the sentence AND putting it in the very beginning of the article, it gives John Muhammad too Islamic of a flavor that he didn't even claim to have or want, at least as far as I can tell from all the other information as well as what we have already proven to know on the talk page.
To keep the information we have in there now, it NEEDS a better source than the one provided. Notice my changes in the history that were revoked. I included a line that the information was subject to media biases, and it was removed basically saying that the fact that the source was biased is not information given by the source itself. Okay, I understand.. But let's find a better source about Malvo's drawings, until then I propose that the 'jihad' reference be removed entirely, or, at the very VERY least, as supported in the reference, it should be mentioned that these drawings were supposedly found after the fact and not before, and this should be moved to elsewhere in the article. Otherwise, at it stands, it is very misleading. Destiny ps4 iso download. Sawyer207 (talk) 03:46, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
Merger proposal
I propose that John Allen Muhammed (J.A.M.) be merged into Beltway sniper attacks. The biography article of J.A.M. falls under WP:BLP1E & WP:PERP. J.A.M. is primarily notable for the series of events that are the subject of the article Beltway sniper attacks. The size of Beltway sniper attacks, is slightly greater than 50k, which is below the size that would require a sub-article per WP:LIMIT. The size of the J.A.M. article is slightly greater than 30k size; merging the J.A.M. article into the Beltway sniper attacks would not exceed the size prescribed in LIMIT.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 14:41, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
Per WP:MERGE, I am notifying the involved WikiProjects of these two articles of this proposal, and leaving this notification per WP:CANVASS#Appropriate notification.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 14:48, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose because, due to the articles and books that focus on this person and/or his killing partner (Lee Boyd Malvo), there's a lot more that can be added to this article; such additions, because there's not much to state that wouldn't be more about the Beltway sniper attacks, would be analysis of Muhammad's thinking and behavior. Whether or not he fits the criteria of a serial killer or spree killer (or a even a combination of the two), which is touched on in the lead, is an example. And there's very likely a lot more to be written in such vein (thinking and behavior) about him and Lee Boyd Malvo in the future (yes, I know about WP:CRYSTALBALL). To me, if a merge is desirable, it would be better to merge the John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo articles together (under the title John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo). Why not propose that the Lee Boyd Malvo article also be merged? Flyer22 (talk) 19:04, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
- I would support a merger of Lee Boyd Malvo as well per WP:BLP1E & WP:PERP to the Beltway sniper attacks article. As they are only the felons who have been convicted of the event which is the subject of the Beltway sniper attacks, and they are primarily notable for the subject of that article, BLP1E and PERP apply to both. Both their articles can be summarized, and merged. If even after summarization, content is expanded, a Sub-article can be recreated with the name suggested by Flyer22.
- I will tag that article as well. Thanks for the idea.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 00:11, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose. I simply don't see what would be gained by merging the articles. If it works, don't fix it. Also, Flyer22 makes good arguments against a merge. – Herzen (talk) 23:27, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose. There are plenty of articles about murderers on Wikipedia, some much less prominent than Muhammad. See John William Byrd, Jr.. Illegitimate Barrister (talk) 06:46, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
- Those articles may not follow the guideline WP:BLP1E and WP:PERP and might be good candidates for merger to the article of the event. Also WP:OTHERSTUFFEXIST just because some articles don't follow relevant guidelines or essays, doesn't mean other articles shouldn't.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:08, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
Malvo Shooting helped get us into the Iraq War..
The single biggest accidental effect of the Malvo shootings gets ignored by everybody. The Senate debate on whether to go to war took place at the same time. War was declared on October 11, 2002. The Malvo shooting spree dominated the headlines and pushed the war debate completely off the front page of most newspapers for the entire debate. The last chance to oppose the war was lost in a sea of headlines screaming 'SNIPER !!!' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.42.41.105 (talk) 21:09, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
- Please read the talk page guidelines. Illegitimate Barrister (talk) 13:10, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Graphic The 4chan Serial Killer
Reason for killings
The 4 Chain Serial Killer
I was just made aware of this tonight, since his wife told the story at Mizzou's (University of Missouri, Columbia) campus tonight. (thurs. sept 30, at 7pm) The reason for the killings is because he was after his wife. He had kidnapped their three children, and lost the trial for custody. He then decided to go after his wife. He proclaimed that he was innocent the whole time. The day of his execution hsi children asked to speak with him, but he never contacted them, and the execution went on that night. It was later revealed the reason he didn't speak to his children is for fear of being asked the question 'why?' because it would've broken him and the facade he put up to stay confident in his belief of his innocence would have crumbled.
- Nobody knows definitively what the motive was, except for John Allen Muhammad (who is dead now). However, his wife is mentioned as a possible motive in many sources, and it sounds like a plausible one. Illegitimate Barrister (talk) 13:11, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
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